Kitchen-Table Counseling Within Your Local Church

Courtney Doctor

Every single person who has ever been born except Jesus goes through life simultaneously as both a sinner and someone who’s been sinned against, someone who is both a sufferer and causes the suffering of others. And so we are able to enter in to each other’s lives and each other’s stories with the truth and the hope of the gospel.

Welcome to the deep dish, a podcast from the gospel coalition, where we love having deep conversations about deep truths. I’m Courtney doctor, and I’m here with my friend and co host Melissa Kruger, and today we want to talk about what we’re calling kitchen table counseling. So let’s just start Melissa, what is kitchen table counseling? And what is it not?

Melissa Kruger

Yeah, it could be kitchen table counseling. It could be park bench counseling. Exactly. It could be my Walking buddy counseling. And so I think what we’re really talking about here is kind of that counsel we give to one another, and the special thing that can happen in friendship and relationships, where we start telling our stories to one another. And those can have grief, they can have sorrow. They can have real hurts in them, and we, as we enter into these conversations with one another, we start giving each other counsel. And let’s be clear, that can be good counsel or that can be bad counsel. And you know, we of course, want to be women who are giving wise counsel across our kitchen tables. And who can enter into these conversations, though, in a way that is both true and compassionate, and yet not a compassion that leads us to not be truthful, right, and not a truth that leads us to not be kind, you know? So we want these conversations to really be ones that point one another to Jesus. And we want to say, at the beginning, there is a place for professional counseling. This conversation is about just lay level counseling. And I like to say like we’re looking for to become the type of women who people want to share their hurts and hardships and struggles with and griefs with where that feels like, oh, I can go to that person and I know I’ll be heard and challenged appropriately and reminded of the truth I need to hear. Yeah, that’s, to me, the best kind of kitchen table counseling. But we also sometimes, in kitchen table counseling, say, hey, this, you know, if we see things like self harm or maybe the potential for self harm, or hear of abuse in the past, we might be the friend who’s helping them get to the place they need you to get even, even more specific type of help that we it’s also part of knowing your limits in kitchen table counseling. So, so so we want to say that at the beginning, this is, you know, we’re entering in with people, but we also know there is really a place for professional counseling, but we want to do it as best we can. So, so on that thought, how is it different than, like, a discipleship or mentoring relationship? Yeah, I

Courtney Doctor

think it’s a type of discipleship. I think I think of it as sort of a subset of discipleship, because when you’re in these relationships that you’re sharing your life, you’re sharing your story, you’re sharing your joys and your sorrows with each other, all of our stories contain all of these pieces, right, suffering, sorrow, sin, and as we, as we walk with people and we trust them, we self disclose, and people self disclose to us and and this is the environment where a lot of times, that’s the first place that it is something is disclosed. Like you you’re in a discipleship relationship, or you’re in a friendship, and eventually enough trust is built that you feel like you can tell that person either something that has happened in your life, something that is happening and that can be your own sin, the sin of someone else, your own suffering, the suffering of someone else. I say it all the time, but we, every single person who has ever been born, except Jesus, goes through life simultaneously as both a sinner and someone who’s been sinned against, someone who is both a sufferer and causes the suffering of others and so and so as we’re having these robust relationships, which is what we’re supposed to be doing, these things bubble to the surface. And so we are able to enter in to each other’s lives and each other’s stories with the truth of and the hope of the gospel. And so I think of it as a subset of discipleship. Yeah, so

Melissa Kruger

what? When? What makes you willing to go there with someone like i. Mean, you know, I know you’ve got a ton of sin. I mean, it’s true.

I’m totally kidding. We all do like we also, what does create a space? What are the maybe? What are the qualities of someone like I went, when you think about that first person that you were able to say, hey, I have this in my past, and maybe that means I’m never supposed to teach the Bible. Maybe that means I can’t be in leadership. Maybe you know the things that might hold us back. Um, who? What? What qualities are you looking for when you open up to a woman like that? Yeah,

Courtney Doctor

I told my kids when they were little. I said, if you’re going to listen to someone’s advice, I would, I would ask these four questions, do they know God? Do they love God? Do they know you and do they love you? Because if any one of those pieces are missing, it doesn’t mean that we don’t accept counsel from those people, but I think we weight it differently, because if somebody has all four of those pieces, that’s a powerful combination to listen to their advice, because they’re going to be, for you, it’s going to be based in knowledge. They’re going to be, you know, bringing the truth of God and His Word to bear on the situation. And so those are, those are really important. But then I think about those friendships, that they’re safe there. You know that that person is going to be they’re first going to turn to the Lord in prayer. They’re going to kind of what you started with. They’re not going to fall off on the side of either. You know, if we want to pit truth and love against each other, they’re not going to fall off into the ditch on one side or the other and be all just like, well, let me just tell you, you know you’re a sinner, and that’s why you’re in this. But they’re going to speak the truth in love, but they’re also, I think what most of us are more inclined to do is really point people to ourselves and and want them to like us. And so we we miss the truth piece and so, so this

Melissa Kruger

talking about me like that, Courtney, I wouldn’t like it. This is not let’s counsel Melissa about her sin patterns, right?

Courtney Doctor

But yeah, all these interventions, we’re having a deep dish for me.

Melissa Kruger

But I do, because it’s so tempting just to be concerned about how that person’s thinking about you in the moment. I know I want them to feel loved, or even sometimes they need to feel rebuked. I mean, like if they’re coming to you and saying, No, I’m convinced the love of my life is not my husband, it’s this guy at work. Well, the compassionate thing is, is not to just like, I agree, right? That’s actually not compassion, right? The compassionate thing hold the line, yeah, is to be I love you, and that’s never going to go well for you. Yeah? Right now it looks so enticing, but the end of that road is death, and I don’t know how it’s going to come, but it’s going to be full of pain and brokenness and sin is never the answer, you know, and to be able to hold it with this deep love for the person, like you said, and yet this deep longing for their best good, which is always found in God’s Word.

Courtney Doctor

Yep, and that again, say those two things again, because that’s really important. Melissa,

Melissa Kruger

Oh, can you repeat them?

Courtney Doctor

That their best good is always found in God and His Word, like that is the path of flourishing. That is the path of the abundant life. It’s not the easy one, but it’s the good one. Yeah, that’s

Melissa Kruger

right. And so to me, that’s the best kitchen table counseling is those women. So for me, it’s sometimes those women, I trust that they’ve been in the word more than like writing their own advice columns. You know that they’re being shaped by God’s word. It’s infusing their brain and it just overflows from their hearts. And so I always want to find those women who I know are going to give me truth and law and they love me. I think that’s that’s really the substance of a good kitchen table.

Courtney Doctor

Yeah, I had a friend like that in my 20s, and I was complaining pretty significantly about my husband, and I everything in me just wanted her to enter in and bond. And we’ve all been in that situation where it’s a little tempting to bond with that person over this, and she was just, I mean, she was she spoke life to me, and she rebuked me and said, I think you need to go home and make a list of 20 things you’re grateful for about him, you know, and that I ended up having so much more respect for her, and I felt so much safer with her, because I knew she was going to speak the truth to me. And when, when we fail to speak the truth to each other, like you said, We’re it’s the least. Loving thing we can do. It’s just self protective and but it’s hard to kind of cultivate and curate that ability within yourself to speak the truth in love. So let me ask you. Galatians 62 says, Bear one another’s burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ. And I think that’s what we’re talking about here, bearing each other’s burdens and speaking the truth of Christ. So can you tell me about a time that you were really burdened, and someone came along and kitchen table counseled you, helped carry that load? And then how did it how did it help? And why did it matter? It’s

Melissa Kruger

probably been now about 18 years since this one happened. So it’s been a while, my father had a heart attack, and then when he fell, he hit his head, and so he had a brain bleed. And so the heart we didn’t know about the brain bleed, so the heart attack was actually really easily handled. My mom was like, don’t even come he’s fine. They’re putting the stent in. And then the brain bleed turned out to be a nightmare. We got well, my brother and I got to the hospital, the neurosurgeon came out, and he was basically like, if he makes it, we’re going to take it minute by minute, and then there was no hope that he would even cognitively be himself again. And I had three little kids at the time. In fact, I was still nursing, and I can remember something my friends did, they would just send me scripture. So I actually didn’t even have sometimes when you’re in suffering like that, you can’t get around the kitchen table with someone, but, but they were texting me these scriptures, and they actually had no idea that those scriptures were some of the very same scriptures I was reading in like my in my daily life. No idea that that these things were happening. But I can just remember some of them who had lost parents, and they just knew what I was walking through, or who had been in the hospital, people who had done hospital stays new. I can remember some of them would just come. They would just bring food, because you don’t even know, oh, I don’t know how to eat in the hospital. Like they just knew how to enter in physically and then with compassionate care, without having to tell their story. I think some of them would just I remember one person just sitting there and saying, Let’s just pray, but, but you knew they knew what you’re going through, but they didn’t burden me with what they’d been through. They just were there. And so sometimes, I think in that immediate grief, we bear burdens with someone in physical ways and through prayer, and then later, as that story went on for a lot, many years, because it took him a long time or to recover just being able to sit with some older women who could sit with me and say, Okay, how are you gonna this is called, they would actually named it for me. They said, this is called the sandwich problem. You’ve got young kids on one end and older parents on the other, and just giving me names for understanding what I was feeling these pulls to taking care of my young kids, and these pulls toward loving my parents well, and they just got it, and they could just say, okay, yeah, you you’re gonna be giving 100% and it’s never gonna feel like enough. But just the fact that they understood and entered in was so hugely helpful for me in that season where I felt like there just wasn’t enough of me to be the daughter I wanted to be and the mom I wanted to be, the friend I wanted to be, was out the door, the wife I wanted to be, felt out the door, but those women just stood and and were there and could understand. And that was huge for me. Sometimes just naming what you’re going through is really huge. What about you

Courtney Doctor

that’s well, it’s really beautiful. Like to see how somebody was able to counsel you through your own confusion and grief and your kind of conflict of interest, and that is so necessary. I was thinking actually about a sin pattern and a temptation that I was facing and a friend that it was, it was when I finally got the courage to confess it to this friend that it was like the burden was lifted. I mean, there I have, I feel like, over and over in my life, I’ve experienced that where you bring something to light and it loses its power. And that was just having that friend that was safe enough and godly enough for me to say, like, this is I’m really struggling with this just temptation and this, you know, kind of sin pattern in my own heart and mind that was really and it was she, and it was just the, it was the she bared my burden. Bared bore. I don’t know she did something. She carried my burden. I’m not quite sure what word I’m supposed to use, but and it, it really lightened it. It completely changed how I didn’t feel oppressed by it. I didn’t feel under the weight of it. And, you know, that’s just a freeing thing. And so as we’re talking about those people that are are safe, and they offer the wise counsel, um, what is? About them. And then, how can we become those women that others want when they are burdened, it’s our kitchen tables that they want to come sit at, because I want to be that woman. Yeah,

Melissa Kruger

yeah. I think the things you already said were so good. They love God. They love his word. They love you, like that. That’s a great place to begin. I just think that little outline was so good for anyone to think about when we think about these type of women, I really think learning to ask good questions can help immeasurably in these type of conversations. So I was thinking about this like, how do we do this? Let’s say someone comes back from, you know, they they’ve lost someone they love, and they’re coming back from the funeral home. I’ll be honest. I think an overwhelming question is, how are you doing? I think that’s really hard to answer, so I try to stick in the category of, Hey, what did the funeral director tell you? How’s tomorrow going to look what’s the process? Just asking them the questions. Because what you’re doing in that moment when they’re just telling you what’s going on, then you can say, okay, so it sounds like it’s going to be really busy from two to three. Would it be helpful if I got someone, you can enter in in that way. But I think going back to concrete things that they can talk about, rather than how they’re feeling when, especially when there’s been a grief or a loss, I think that’s helpful. So really, sometimes, before I go into a situation, I think, how am I not going to ask, how are you doing? Like, I’m in my car thinking through what’s a better question, because that’s what’s so easy. I mean, like, if I’m, oh, how you doing? How are you like, I mean, but I I’ve been asked that before, and I’m like, I have no idea. Or if someone asked me, How can I pray for you? I’m like, I don’t, I don’t know. I can’t and

Courtney Doctor

because the answer is, simultaneously I’m absolutely gutted and I’m being held like, I’m I’m fine, and I’m like, wrecked at the same time. And so, yeah, that’s so good that, yeah, learning and thinking ahead of time about those questions. I really love that. Yeah,

Melissa Kruger

yeah. What about you? What? What has made you Yeah, as you enter into situations with people. How? How have you learned to enter in? I mean, you’ve done women’s ministry for years. So how have you learned to enter in to those situations, whether it’s grief or yeah, these are all really different situations that we might be called to counsel and and we all, we would both say, start with prayer on that drive over art with

Courtney Doctor

prayer, yes, and pray the whole time. Well, my natural proclivity is, as you well know, to jump in with advice. I mean, I’m like, somebody’s coming to me for like counsel. They want my words, right? That’s they want my words, and they want my thoughts on this, and so I just, I’m almost like, on the edge of my seat. Used to be. Maybe I’m changing in this like, Oh, why are you still talking? Because you’re here because you want my words, you know, you want my advice on this. And so realizing that there’s actually a lot of therapy that happens just by listening and by sitting and being that space to I have friends that are counselors, and they talk about holding someone’s story. And I really love that of okay, kind of that invitation. You can keep telling me this, I can hold it like I can hold it and and then holding it means that I I don’t share it with anybody else. So I don’t, you know, I try to navigate my own tendency to want to speak into it immediately, like you said, continue to ask it questions, and then be willing to sit in there are some situations that I don’t know what to say, and so be willing to sit in those spaces that it’s okay for both of you not to know, but just to sit in it and be really sad about it and then ask the Lord to step in. I mean, the number of times in my prayer that I say, Lord, I don’t even know how to pray, but I know your son and your spirit are interceding right now. I bank on that. I go to that. And so even going back to those first four things, the ones that are really in my power to do, in my control, I can be a woman who knows and loves God, that by His grace, by His Spirit, but I can keep knowing more about him, which makes me a better person to come to, because I know him, and then I can work on my own stuff. To, you know, where I want to jump in with advice, or I want to jump in your when you said, jump in with your story. Man, don’t we all do that? And when you’re the one hurting, it drives me. I’m just like, I. I’m This wasn’t about you. Why are we talking about you? Now, have you seen that SNL

Melissa Kruger

skit? No, what are they one upper she’s always one upping, like, I don’t know when it was from. I’m probably wrong, but it’s always like, Oh, will you hurt your pinky? Oh, yeah. Well, my whole arm got cut off. And yeah, is this like, Okay,

Courtney Doctor

Everybody has a story.

Melissa Kruger

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Courtney Doctor

Everybody has a story.

Melissa Kruger

And it makes you feel like, okay, can I share this one when someone kind of one ups, you’re

Courtney Doctor

like, I think I’ve told you the time when, when we had a pony that died. My kid’s pony died, and my friend, I went to her, and I was talking to her, and she literally told me about a time that her kids had a pet frog and it died. Now I hope everybody listening understands that those are not the same thing. They are not I think

Speaker 1

that’s really insensitive of you, and we’re gonna get letters from you lost your frog. I’m really sorry, but my pony story is worse.

Melissa Kruger

Okay? The other thing though, that you said I thought was really important, and I don’t want to forget this. And, you know, my brain, I’m apt to forget. So was the you listen and you you don’t tell it to other people afterwards. Yeah, let’s, let’s talk about this for just a minute. Suffering is like a magnet for people. Everyone wants to be in the know. Oh, are they at the hospital? Where are they? Oh, oh, how is she doing? You it’s almost okay. It is going to pray for her. It is concerned. But then it’s always Courtney. I don’t think she’s doing very well. I mean, you know, this is, I mean, yeah, and it can become a gossip mill of other people’s stories and their suffering, and so the people I trust the most are the ones who I know are going to hold let me lose it. Yep, yeah, let me just have a moment where I throw up my hands and I’m like, I don’t, you know, I don’t know if God loves me right now, something that’s completely untrue. Like, I know is untrue theologically, and is safe enough for me to say and, and I trust that Courtney is not going to be like, well and like, she’s gonna get our coworker and Melissa, yeah, she’s just having a rough time. I don’t know how she’s because what do you you leave feeling like my story was, you know, your lunchtime conversation, and then you feel even more guarded, and your walls are up more. So I think sometimes it guises itself as concern, but we’re really gossiping. Yes, yes. When you said that, I was like, yeah, that that that’s one of the most important things a kitchen table counselor can do. Yes, it’s just

Courtney Doctor

so glad you highlighted that if anybody has to start a conversation with please don’t tell her I told you this. No, don’t put the burden of keeping the confidence on the next person that you’re telling it to you be the one that doesn’t tell anybody Yeah. Confidential safe spaces are really valuable, aren’t they? Yeah? Because the opposite of it is devastating, yeah.

Melissa Kruger

And even even things that might seem simple, like, I think it’s really helpful. Let’s say there’s a chain of people who are praying. Hey, would you? Would it be helpful for you if I told our 10, our group of 10, on the chat, right? What you just told me, right? So they can pray, ask permission, because I do know for me, in that story, I told earlier about my dad, I was exhausted telling people, so I told one of my friends. I said, could you just tell everybody, like, what the medical stuff? Because there’s just a lot of details, and you get weary of telling some of that. And so that’s totally fine, but just take the time you know different people. One thing I’ve learned this is maybe another thing, different people are different. Yeah, took me 30 years to realize that, but so some person might be totally fine that you shared, and might be offended you didn’t share. Oh, why didn’t you tell them all to pray for this? But another person might keep things, especially medical things, a lot closer to the chest. So I think, I think we need to be aware.

Courtney Doctor

Ask permission. I really love that. Okay, well, so on one hand, we don’t want to just jump into advice giving. We don’t want to tell them our story. So these are things we’ve said, don’t do, don’t give advice to, you know, over like, just quickly and and don’t jump into telling them your own version of the story. But also talk about, we want to give them scripture. We want to give them the truth of God’s word. But it can also be a timing issue and a wisdom issue, because I don’t know if you’ve ever sat with somebody who just puts a little quick band aid on everything with and the band aid is a Bible verse. So, Bible band aids. Bible band aids. So, so what are some passages that you found really helpful? In providing counsel. And what are some times that, how can we, how can we become women who don’t offer Bible band aids and offer scripture at the same time?

Melissa Kruger

Yeah? Yeah. I, I think that is a really good question, because it’s really easy to Romans, 828, everything. Yep. You know, well, I know in all things, God is working for the good, you know. So he’s working this for good. And that is true. That’s true. True. So true. And at the same time, we all know sometimes that is just not what is needed in that moment. And so one thing I really try to do, I don’t know, I’m sure you have good ideas on this, is let the scriptures guide my prayers for them. So my own time in the Word, and I feel this to be amazing, because I can say, Hey, I was in first Chronicles today. So it’s not the typical they know who’s reading first Chronicles anyway, she must be honest about this. Yeah, I was, and I saw this passage, and you know, it says, Hey, you’re not going to have to fight this battle. The Lord will fight it for you. I’m going to pray those words for you today in your sin struggle, that you’re going to just stand and see the salvation of the Lord, and you’re going to just see him provide for you. I feel like, you know when we say I’m praying this for you, or rather than, I don’t know like something that that might just seem trite or or an easy answer, or if someone’s anxious, hey, I’m really praying. I am praying that the peace of the peace of God would guard your heart and

Courtney Doctor

mind. No, yeah, the peace this other transcends all understanding. Will guard your heart and mind in Christ, Jesus, but you’re the one that wrote the Bible study on Philippians. So no, I need those verses all the time. That’s why I know them, because I desperately need every part of that.

Melissa Kruger

Yeah. What about you? How do you engage scripture in these and yet not, you know, not make it a Bible Band Aid.

Courtney Doctor

Not make it a Bible Band Aid. Well, I think that that does take wisdom and finesse. I really liked what you said about taking those the two things, you know that it was fresh that because you were in the Word, and that does happen when you’re spending time in the Word, because God is actually sovereign, and he cares about you, and He cares about that person. And the number of times that I have been in a passage that was complete that it just brought it to mind. And you know, that’s like the living, active Word of God. We read it through the lens of what we’re going through, and part of what we’re going through is what our friends are going through. It’s why corporate worship is so important. Because when you’re singing those songs, and you look over and you you know the story of the person three people down from you, you you sing the song differently. You can sing the song for them. You can stand and and hold their hope in that moment, hold their comfort in the moment. Anyway, I’m digressing, but the idea that it’s fresh and that you pray it, I think that that’s really significant. And then there are times just to say, I don’t want this to sound trite, like I actually mean this as as something solid to hold on to, because it is and so you know He will never leave you or forsake you. He actually is working all things together for good. And so let’s talk about what that means. Let’s redefine what good is. Let’s talk about how God could be doing that so, so maybe even camp on the verses for a little bit longer and wrestle through them, rather than kind of throwing them from a distance. And then I think also learning how to pray those bigger prayers, like what you’re talking about. It’s one reason I love Nancy Guthrie’s book. I’m praying for you. Now that’s not so much kitchen table counseling. That’s if somebody’s going through really an illness or suffering, but you can give it to people, and it teaches them how to pray scripture and really bigger prayers like use this to conform Christ in me. Use this to strengthen and anchor my faith further in the gospel than it was prior to whatever the struggle or the suffering is that you’re dealing with. And so I think the only way we do that is with the Word of God, yeah.

Melissa Kruger

And I think another thing I’m also hearing from you too, you might be having that over the kitchen counter, but then follow up. So I think this is something important that we haven’t talked about. So we’ve talked about some things not to do. But I think one thing that’s really important too, particularly like, if someone is sharing a sin struggle with you, and if they ask for accountability, give it to them. Meaning, you know, if a woman in your church comes and says, Hey, I’m really struggling with pornography, you can assure her of God’s grace. You can assure her of God’s forgiveness, and then remember, you might be the only one she’s ever shared that struggle with, and that is its own burden on you, but follow up with her, because it took a risk for her to share. And in fact, when someone shares a sin struggle, I think it’s really if you can, within 24 hours, to send a text, to send something, to say, hey, thank you for being brave enough to share that with me. I want you to know I’m here for you. I want you to know Jesus loves you and I’m praying for you. You know, just to not make them feel like alone. I don’t know if you’ve ever had a situation where I’ve had situations where I shared something personal or deep in my heart with someone, and then I’m like, what do they think of me now? Oh, my goodness, am I crazy? Should I have done that? Was that okay? And you and even to assure them, Hey, I just want you to know I’m not going to tell anyone about this. It’s safe with me, you know. Because don’t we all wonder that, like, Oh, is she now, do all this woman now know that I have this struggle, or whatever it might be. And so I think that confidentiality is important. Telling them you’ll keep it confidential is important, you know, and following up, and if they’re actually asking for accountability. Say, Hey, I’m going to ask you on Sunday, how was this weekend? Because I know this The weekend is a hard time for you when you’re watching TV shows you shouldn’t. Yep,

Courtney Doctor

just a friend that asked me, and we got really specific with it, because she said, This is what I’m struggling with, and this is when I struggle with it. And so I said, Okay, tell me how I can like she’s asking me for accountability. So tell me what that looks like. And it was that it was like on these evenings, would you just text me and just tell me, remind me that you’re thinking of me and you’re praying for me, and you know it’s but she was involved in the process of kind of her own healing and and victory over sin patterns, and so that was really beautiful. So okay, I want to repeat a few things that we’ve said that I think are worth repeating us. We’re because if, if you’re listening and you’re thinking, oh, I need to find somebody like that. All I mean, both of us would just say, do it there is the Lord has wired us to need each other and to have people to invite them into these struggles. And remember that person’s not your Savior. They might fail you in this they might not live up to every expectation that you have, and that’s okay, because we’re doing this together. But if you’re the person that somebody reaches out to, then you know, we’ve said not to overshare your own story. Don’t just give good advice. Take them to the Lord in prayer. But even if in your own heart, you start feeling sort of maybe morally superior, because that’s not your struggle, then I would say that’s a time that the Lord is allowing you to be a kitchen table counselor, but it’s going to be for the good of the other person, but also for your sanctification. The Lord’s going to be working out something in you and bringing humility to you. Have to remind yourself that that there is no one righteous, no not one. And for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. And so we are fellow sinners and sufferers, walking with other sinners and sufferers, and so to enter those relationships with tenderness, care, but humility, yeah,

Melissa Kruger

yeah, yeah, all of it. I think one thing you talked about just a minute ago that I wanted to highlight again is part of that humility. I think you said your friend said, or maybe you said to your friend, what would accountability look like, having the humility to be like, let me ask you what, what would be the best way? And I think that’s a really important thing in kitchen table counseling, hey, what would be the best way for me to follow up with you? Would you rather me is a hug at church? Okay? Or do you not want me to do that? Because people might be like, Why are they hugging it? Would you rather me email you? Would you rather me text you and then be like, Hey, I’d love to send you a verse every now and again. Do you want me to do that? Like, is that helpful? Like, I think taking the time to humbly say, I’m not you what in this season of grief, you know, and maybe giving multiple choice answers, because sometimes they’re like, I don’t know. I mean, that’s me. I’m a terrible I don’t know her. I don’t know what would be helpful. But when someone says, Hey, can I bring you a meal on Tuesday or Thursday or Saturday? Okay, Saturday is better, right? Rather than, can I bring you a meal sometime? Right? Like sometimes, I don’t know. I mean, sure, maybe I don’t know when that would be. So, yeah. Let

Courtney Doctor

me know if I can do anything to help kind of thing. And they’re like, Okay, that’s so unspecific that it’s not helpful.

Melissa Kruger

Yes, so I think there’s taking the time to, you know, think about the questions we’re going to ask, and then how are we going to respond after? So it’s not just what happens at the kitchen table, you know, it’s what happens before we come to it. It’s what happens after we come to it, and it’s what’s happening in our own life as we’re walking with Jesus and remembering how much we need him, because the grace that we’ve received is what’s going to overflow, you know, in in a gentle but loving rebuke, and we’re still going to offer it because we know we needed it at times, or just the ability to sit and weep with a friend who’s in grief and not feel like we’ve got to solve it. And I think that’s what you were really getting to earlier, when you were talking about, you know, like, the giving of advice we want to solve it. And I can remember one season, I mean, it was really hard, and I felt like a few people in my life just wanted to solve me, yeah, and I was like, I just, I need to just be allowed to lament, that laments a part of the Christian life, and the Lord will bring us out, and we can trust the Lord will heal. We don’t have to be the agents of healing. We can be part of that process, but we can also know, and I think this is maybe even a last hope we can give people. The Lord is the shepherd of a sheep. We might be a part in someone’s story, but we’re also not responsible for the healing that happens or even pointing them to the they might reject our rebuke. They might reject us because we we said, hey, I don’t think this is going to go well for you, but the Lord’s writing the story in their life, and we can, we can trust in Him, in our limited part in this person’s story. As you said earlier, we don’t have to be the Savior.

Courtney Doctor

That’s that’s a good word. Okay, well, before we close, I want to ask you if you could sit at your kitchen table or someone else’s kitchen table, with one of the saints who has gone before us, and you would be kitchen table counseled. Who, who would you choose?

Melissa Kruger

You’re gonna laugh at who I would choose. I would choose, because we’ve been reading count it all joy. So I was thinking about this. I would want to sit down with Helen Rosevear, and the reason why, if you read that little book, count it all joy. What I love about Helen is she is so quick to say how she didn’t get it at first, I know. So she makes me feel like, Oh, she’s human. She didn’t just count it all joy every time something horrible happened. Yet she walked faithfully with the Lord and she she fought for joy in it. But what about you? Who would you? Who would you want to sit down? This probably

Courtney Doctor

won’t surprise you. Uh, Deborah, I want to sit down with the judge, the judge like the Deborah, the Deborah, the Deborah. That’s exactly, yeah, I want to, I want, I want to know. I want to know more. Or maybe, uh, maybe it would be. JL, the 10th peg person like, I just want to know, like you, like the people who will give you the stern rebuke, Courtney, I know, I know it really, it’s very on brand for me that is that that all plays out very well. Well, okay, I this conversation is significant, because this kind of conversation and this kind of relationship is really important that we are all engaging in this type of robust sharing our stories, sharing our struggles, speaking truth to each other, kind of relationship. And so yeah, thank you, and we hope that you’ve enjoyed this episode of the deep dish from the gospel coalition, and that something has been helpful and spurred you on in your own life. If that is true, we would love for you to like it and subscribe to it or leave a comment, even consider supporting the work of TGC so we can make more content like this, but thank you for joining us, and we will see you next time on the deep dish.